"The Gates of Gaza" Israeli Journalist and Author Amir Tibon interviewed by Bonnie Ellinger - video and transcript

NMJJ felt this extraordinary interview with Israeli Oct. 7th survivor, border kibbutz resident, Haaretz journalist and "Gates of Gaza" author Amir Tibon, deserved to be transcribed and published here. This insightful and informed interview conducted by Bonnie Ellinger answers many questions we all have had, The interview, part of the Santa Fe Distinguished Lecture Series, is on the Jewish Learning Channel on YouTube. You can watch and listen by clicking on the red arrow above, and read the complete transcript below.

Mon, Apr 07, 2025 4:47PM • 1:04:50

SPEAKERS

Ron, Amir, Bonnie

Ron  00:03

Hello. I'm Ron Duncan Hart of the Santa Fe Distinguished Lecture Series, and I welcome you to this program with the award- winning Israeli author Amir Tibon, who will be interviewed by Dr. Bonnie Ellinger. I would like to thank the synagogues that announced these programs to their members and thank all of you who've donated to make these programs possible. I'd like to especially recognize doctors Halley Faust and Eve Cohen for their support for today's program and for its recording on the Jewish Learning Channel on YouTube. When our world is living through an all too human time of turmoil with wars and political conflicts, the goal of the Distinguished Lecture Series is to bring a time of respite and insightful thought and questioning. We seek truth and perspective in bringing leading national and international authors and scholars, and today, such an author joins us. Amir Tibon is a highly acclaimed National Jewish Book Award-winning author for his book, The Gates of Gaza. He was also nominated for the National Magazine Award for winning for reporting on the New Republic article on how close they came. His publications include a biography of Mahmoud Abbas entitled The Last Palestinian. He is a writer for Haaretz, and he was a Washington correspondent for the newspaper from 2017 to 2020.

He will be interviewed by Dr Bonnie Ellinger, author and collaborator on the Santa Fe distinguished lecture series from Brooklyn, NY. She made Aliyah as a young woman to Israel, lived there for 35 years, initially on a kibbutz, and later earned her PhD and taught at Bar Ilan University. She currently lives in Santa Fe. Amir Tibon, we'd like to thank you for this dramatic telling of what happened on October the seventh, the history behind it, why it happened. And Dr. Ellinger, we thank you for your collaboration with the Santa Fe distinguished lecture series and for making Jewish life better. And it is my pleasure now to welcome the two of you to this program.

Bonnie  02:38

Thank you, Ron, Shalom Amir, Hi. 

Amir  02:42

Thank you so much for this great honor, and I'm very excited to be speaking with you this evening, for me here in Israel, it is already this past 8 pm, so again, I'm honored, and really, really happy to be doing this.

Bonnie  03:01

 I think the honor is ours, but okay, we'll accept that too. It's wonderful to have you here with us on Zoom. Tomorrow, April 7, will mark 18 months since October 7, and there is a lot to discuss. I loved The Gates of Gaza and how you wove the chapters together to create a riveting narrative. But before you tell us the amazing story of how you and your family survived the mass slaughter, I'd like to ask a first question: Women soldiers serving on the National Military Base near your kibbutz warned the army that Hamas was preparing for a large attack, but they were ignored. At least 15 of those women soldiers were murdered on October 7, and five were held captive in Gaza in harrowing conditions for over 500 days. How could the military and government not have known what was happening?

Amir  04:16

Bonnie, this is, in a way, the billion-dollar question that we all have to ask ourselves, all Israelis and everybody who considers themselves a friend and a supporter of Israel. The only way to find out the answer is through a mechanism that exists here in Israel, which is called a state commission of inquiry, or in Hebrew…, and this is a mechanism to investigate major failures of the state. We've had 16 or 17 of those in Israel's history. There was one for the Yom Kippur War in 1973 which, till October 7 was considered the biggest military failure in our history but has been eclipsed by October 7. We had one for the Rabin assassination in 1995 and we had one more recently, for the Meron stampede. This was a civilian disaster in northern Israel, during which more than 50 people died in a religious festival. And we should obviously have one for October 7, which is the worst day in the history of the state of Israel, a day on which 1200 people were murdered. More than 240 were taken hostage. Entire communities were destroyed, and yet we have right now, a government in power in Israel that for 18 months has refused to begin the work of investigating and has refused to construct a state commission of inquiry and get to the bottom of all these disturbing questions. What happened to the military was, why wasn't there an intelligence early warning? Why were warning signs like what those young girls, female soldiers at the National Military Base reported. Why were those signs ignored? Why did Israel, for so many years, allow Qatar to bring suitcases full of cash, billions of dollars, into the Gaza Strip? Why was there a policy of allowing Hamas to not only remain in power in Gaza, but flourish and grow.  All of these questions, Bonnie, have to be investigated. They must be investigated by a state commission of inquiry. And tomorrow would be a wonderful day to do actually have the investigation begin.

Bonnie  07:00

And I'm sure it would take quite a while to put all the pieces together. Indeed. So now I'd like to ask you about your father, and what happened on October 7. Your father, a retired general, got in his car - and your mother was also there, but that’s another part of the story... Your father dashed from Tel Aviv to save you and your family in Kibbutz Nahal Oz, while terrorists were outside your door. Could you tell us how he was able to do that? Not every father can do that, obviously.

Amir  07:37

You know, I don't want to get into too much detail, because then people will not want to read the book, honestly. 

Bonnie  07:44

Okay. That's why I have plenty of questions. 

Amir  07:48

It's, you know, it's quite a story, obviously, but I must, I want to say something more general, not specific, about my family. On that day, we did not see the Israeli government and military functioning for many, many hours. Everything was chaotic. There was no order, there was no line of command, as you would expect, but we saw a lot of Israelis from different parts of the country do this kind of thing. Just get in their car and go out and drive toward these communities that were attacked and try to save people, and our family story is one such story, a unique story, in many ways. It's not the only story, and this was something that happened, and I think it tells us more broadly about heroism and failure and the connection between the two of them, because where do you need heroes? Where do you need people to do something extraordinary, risk their own lives to save others, go into the line of fire? When do you need heroes to show up? When the system collapses, when things don't work. If everything had worked properly, and there was a proper military response, and the government would have been on top of it, we could have stopped this with, you know, a much smaller number of casualties, and there wouldn't be this need for so many heroes to show up. And the story of heroism and the story of the massive failure, they don't contradict each other, they complement each other, they explain one another. So, to me, that's the important emphasis here. And as for the, you know, family drama, minute by minute, you'll get all of it if you read the book, I promise.

Bonnie  09:45

Well, I can just say I got all of it in the book and I couldn't put it down. It's an incredible story. You have a wonderful family, but your father did something that was remarkable, and so I recommend that everybody read the book, of course. So now, I'd like to ask you about the situation in the country today. Negotiations are at a standstill. There are still 59 hostages in Gaza. The cease fire has ended, and the fighting has renewed. Eighteen months after October 7, the country seems to be tearing itself apart. There have been weekly, sometimes daily, demonstrations against the government's attempt to fire both the Attorney General and the head of Shin Bet - Israel's internal security, as well as a continued effort to radically change the judiciary. Several years ago, Prime Minister Netanyahu was indicted on charges of bribery, fraud and breach of trust, and now there is the scandal of Qatargate. Can you help us understand what is going on?

Amir  11:06

Okay. Well, that's a lot to unpack. I know one question, but I will try. Let's start with the most important and most urgent of all these issues, which is the hostages. I want to give some historical perspective for our viewers to understand, Bonnie. In 1948, in Israel's War of Independence, the last prisoners of war taken hostage by our enemies were returned to their families after eight months, the women who were taken hostage (because there were also women prisoners of war in 1948) returned after three weeks, and the last of the men held captive by our enemies returned after eight months. 

That was in 1948; Israel was a smaller, weaker, poorer countries back then, we didn't have the air force we have today, and the high-tech industry and all these other wonders, but we got our last prisoners of war back to their families after eight months. Tomorrow, we are going to mark 18 months since our people were kidnapped, many of them from their beds in front of the eyes of their children. This includes my friend and neighbor, Omri Miran from Kibbutz Nahal Oz, who was kidnapped in front of his two young daughters, and tomorrow we will be marking a year and a half since they last saw him. 

This is an unprecedented situation in the history of Israel, and frankly, it's the biggest failure in the history of this country. The idea that so many people, not one hostage or two, but 59 people would remain in the hands of these vicious terrorists for so long is unthinkable, but it's what's happening right now. The negotiations for a deal to return them has been stuck for a long time, frankly, and one question is really at the heart of this problem. 

The question is, what happens in Gaza the day after the last hostage returns? Hamas is trying to leverage the hostages as a way to survive, to live another day, and they're saying, we want to release all the hostages in return for the end of the war. This is something that Netanyahu, for a year and a half, has refused to accept, and that's why we've had all these smaller deals that allowed the fighting to be resumed again and again and again. One of the problems here is that Israel has not presented, under this government, a credible plan for the day after, for what happens in Gaza after the war, and when you don't present your own plan, other ideas, other forces, enter the vacuum. There's never a vacuum in this part of the world.

 And you know, the person who first explained this to me in such clear terms was actually, I give him credit, Jon Polin, the father of Hirsch Polin Goldberg, who was taken hostage by Hamas, kidnapped by Hamas and murdered in September, and Jon is a very sophisticated man and has been doing a lot for the hostages before and after the tragic murder of his son. He explained it as, you know, kind of like this endless loop argument in which Netanyahu says, we cannot end the war because then, you know, Hamas will remain there the day after. But Netanyahu also does not agree to any day after plan or does not present one of his own. And then when you don't have a plan, you remain stuck in this situation. This was true yesterday, it's true today. It will probably be true tomorrow, and it leaves us only with the possibility of these small slices of temporary deals every time. 

One thing could change all of it, which is if the US, President, President Trump, stood forward and said, I want this war to end. I want all the hostages to return to Israel in one deal, one deal, all the hostages, end of war. Trump could get it done if he decided that this was his policy. I don't think Netanyahu could argue with him. Netanyahu is in a very precarious situation right now, politically and legally, because of some of the other factors you mentioned. He cannot afford a fight with President Trump, but as long as President Trump does not present this idea as the American policy, I'm not optimistic that it will happen. And what we will see is more of these, you know, starts and stops again and again, and regarding the investigation, what? 

So let's separate Netanyahu’s corruption trial, which has been going on for several years now, and deals with more classic kind of political corruption, you know, all kinds of gifts and problematic relationships with the business tycoons and attempts to use the power of the media in corrupt ways. Okay, this is not very different from corruption cases you would see in other countries. Let's separate that for a second from Qatargate. Qartargate is a totally different league of a story, and this is a story that right now, it's all allegations by the Shin Bet Israel's internal security and the Israeli police, but what they are investigating is basically a scheme in which Netanyahu’s, closest advisors, really the people that he has the most trust in, received money from the Qatari government in order to do messaging work for Qatar while working for Netanyahu, for the Israeli prime minister. If this is proven to be true, this is a whole different level of corruption, and it obviously touches on national security questions. 

One of the things that the police are investigating is whether Netanyahu media advisors, you know, really his closest, the names don't really matter. They are all proxies of Netanyahu, whether or not they received money from Qatar in order to spread messages against Egypt in the Israeli media. Why against Egypt? Because Egypt and Qatar have a long-standing competition/rivalry. Qatar is the Muslim Brotherhood. Egypt is the more secular military forces. And remember, the current government in Egypt basically committed a coup 12 years ago to remove the Muslim Brotherhood from power. And both of these countries have been in a competition to offer their services as mediators between Israel and Hamas to get a hostage deal and end the war. And this is something that obviously, the country that helps seal this deal will receive a lot of international credit for it.

 In the past, Israel always preferred Egyptian mediation to Qatari mediation. This was true in the war of 2014 in Gaza. This was true in the deal for Gilad Shalit in 2011. it's very weird, and it raises a lot of disturbing questions, if indeed, people working inside the prime minister's office ran a campaign against Egypt in the midst of the war, and they were getting paid by Qatar at the same time. So, this is a very big scandal, and because of this scandal, and because of the investigation into it, Netanyahu is trying to fire the head of Shin Bet, Israel’s Internal Security Agency, and the Attorney General, because these are the two people running this investigation. The Attorney General is running the investigation on the side of the prosecution and the police. And the head of the Shin Bet is running the intelligence investigation. 

I want to say something about the head of the Shin Bet. He is one of the people most responsible for the failure of October 7. He's no saint and no hero. He's a very problematic man. And just like Netanyahu, and just like members of the government and the top leaders of the army, he failed spectacularly on October 7, and once he steps down from leading the Shin Bet, I think he should never show his face in the public sphere again. But at the same time, Netanyahu did not fire him for a year. And four months after October 7, he kept him next to him for obvious reasons, because if you remove the head of the Shin Bet and you say he is responsible for this failure, what does that say about the government? Okay, so it was comfortable for Netanyahu. It was useful for Netanyahu to keep Ronen Bar as the head of the Shin Bet in order to deflect any discussion of blame and responsibility. But then Ronen Bar began to investigate Quatargate, and all of a sudden, Netanyahu flipped 180 degrees, and said, I need to fire this man. So that's what we're looking at right now. 

There have been appeals to the Supreme Court of Israel against both of these firings of the Shin Bet chief and the Attorney General. I believe the Supreme Court will rule against Netanyahu in both cases because of the conflict of interest that this represents, and I believe that tomorrow, when Netanyahu comes to Washington to meet President Trump, he will try to convince President Trump to put out a statement publicly interfering in Israel's judicial and political affairs by stating that he supports Netanyahu and that the Israeli courts should not intervene. I don't know if President Trump will agree to do it. I think no American president in history would have done something like this, but I'm sure Netanyahu is going to ask him.

Bonnie  22:15

Well, it was a complicated question, and it was a very complicated and fascinating answer, and of course, we have to pay attention to what will happen. Now, back to the book. Okay, you have expressed your fury at the savagery and the brutality of the Hamas attack on October 7, yet you also express great regret about the destruction in Gaza. How are these?

Amir  22:50

I don't know if regret, but sorrow, let's put it sorrow and shock to some degree. Yes. Okay,

Bonnie  22:57

Okay. Sorrow and shock, and so I’ll change my words. That's fine. So how would you describe these feelings? Both are related to the choice for the title of your book. What do the gates of Gaza symbolize, and what is the betrayal you refer to in the subtitle, survival, betrayal and hope?

Amir  23:23

Okay, first, the gates of Gaza. Obviously, I chose that phrase because it's a reference to something that, in itself is a reference because I'm referring to the famous speech by Moshe Dayan that he gave in the cemetery of Kibbutz Nahal Oz In April 1956 at the funeral of a young man named Roy Rotberg, who was the security chief of this kibbutz and was murdered in a terror attack three years after the kibbutz was first founded. Yes, and Moshe Dayan, already a very famous general back then, gave this iconic speech at his funeral, one of the most famous and important speeches in Zionist history. And I took the title of the book from that speech. 

But the speech itself, by referring to the gates of Gaza, actually alludes to the biblical story of Samson, who, if you recall, was this hero of the Israelites and was shockingly held hostage in Gaza by the Philistines that back then, we already had wars between the Israelites and the Philistines, and Samson was able to carry the heavy gates of the city of Gaza on his shoulders and remove them from their place. So, when Moshe Dayan speaks about the gates of Gaza in 1956, he's corresponding with the biblical story of Samson and those gates of Gaza. And when I write the Gates of Gaza, you know, it's the title of this, of this book. I'm influenced by the Dayan speech, but I also have that biblical history in my mind as for the world betrayal. I am asked this question quite a lot, and I never give an answer to it. I tell people they have to read the book.

 I can tell you two answers that others have offered, you know, after reading. One is that this was a betrayal by the Palestinians in Gaza of Israeli border communities, like Nahal Oz, who were always peace seeking communities, communities that often employed people from Gaza, communities that supported the two-state solution, the peace process. And all this history is covered in the book, and the second idea is a betrayal by this specific Israeli government of those same border communities that were the epitome of Zionism. People who lived on the border took risks upon themselves. They were proud to work the land and hold the border until the end of Israel, and when they most needed the State of Israel, the state wasn't there for them. So, I've heard both interpretations, and I can only ask people to read the book and make their own decision about what that word represents. 

Bonnie  26:26

Well, thank you for that. Getting back to Moshe Dayan and the funeral of Roi Rutberg in 1956, I’d like to give you the quote that you have in the book. It's in the epilogue. It's all the way at the end, and it’s the quote of Moshe Dayan at the funeral: “It is not among the Arabs of Gaza, but in our own midst that we must seek Roi’s blood.” How did the kibbutzniks react to that?

Amir  27:07

The argument Dayan was trying to make was that, basically, there should not be any blame cast on the murderers because we Israelis, Jews, we should have known this was coming, and we should have been better prepared. And he makes a whole argument in this speech that he starts by discussing the Palestinian point of view, and he acknowledges the Palestinian pain and the trauma of 1948, what the Palestinians called the Nakba, when they lost their homes and became refugees. 

And he said, these people are sitting in the refugee camps of Gaza. They're looking across the border toward Israel, and they see what were once their homes, their villages, their towns now in our hands, and he, Dayan, almost, almost seems to have a bit of sympathy for them. But then, in a really stunning move rhetorically, he takes all of that and says, and because they want revenge, we should never have any faith in peace. We should never have any hope for better days, and we should always be armed and prepared and ready for the moment when they will come here and try to kill us, and we better strike first. 

And he almost blames this young community and these kibbutzniks who had founded Nahal Oz, with his involvement a few years earlier, of not being ready, you know, of being caught off guard. And that's why he says we should seek the answers within ourselves, a very provocative speech. But obviously that's also the reason why it became so famous, because it says something, right? A lot of times there are speeches that, you know, okay, you can listen to, you can follow. It makes some sense, but it doesn't really say anything. This was a speech that, it wasn't very long, but it had a strong, distinct message. Some people liked it. Some people hated it. Some people changed their mind about it over the course of the decades in both directions, but it's clearly a speech that said something about life here in Israel and the reality that we live in.

Bonnie  29:34

The difficulties, yes, related to what you just said about Moshe Dayan speech and the gates of Gaza, I have a question about a two state solution, which people are not talking about too much anymore, but my question is, have those Israelis (and you're among them) living along the Gaza border, been naive all these years, thinking that a long- lasting peace between Israelis and Palestinians was possible? After October 7, have the prospects for a two-state solution increased or decreased? Hamas has not been destroyed. Is it possible to defeat an ingrained ideology of hatred for Israelis and a deep-rooted desire for Israel's destruction?

Amir  30:29

Well, those are several questions.  

Bonnie  30:33

Yes, they are. They all go together. 

Amir  30:39

Okay, I think the two-state solution today is further away from us than at any point since the Oslo Accords. I think the combination of October 7 and the war in Gaza made both the Israeli people and the Palestinian people extremely suspicious of one another. There is no faith, no trust, a lot of hatred, desire for revenge. This is just not a moment where any discussion of a diplomatic solution and the peaceful reality is really something that people can actually imagine. Will it always stay like this? Who knows? 

I mean, we've seen examples in history where nations that fought one another and killed millions between the respective peoples that eventually made peace. You know, today, when you drive between Germany and France, there's no border, okay, but you go back 100 years, there was a completely different reality between these two countries. Yes, so things can change, but right now, we are at a moment where any discussion of the two-state solution and this kind of diplomacy and diplomatic initiatives is just irrelevant. 

    The urgent mission that can and should be achieved right now, in my mind, is to save the hostages and end the war and to find a way to replace Hamas. Hamas cannot remain in power in Gaza, and there can be economic and diplomatic pressure placed on Hamas to force them to give up power and install a different government in Gaza, one that would have legitimacy and support from the Arab countries, from the United States. This is something that can be done, maybe down the road. This would also reopen some of the diplomatic doors that have been shut down, frankly, even before October 7, and have been completely locked after that date, but it will take years to even begin that discussion. Right now, I think we should prioritize the short term, saving the hostages, ending the war and replacing Hamas. 

    And I want to say something about replacing Hamas that is important for people to understand.  If Hamas remains in power in Gaza, not a single dollar will go into reconstruction of Gaza, because ask yourself, which government will put up the necessary money, and we're talking here about billions upon billions of dollars. Which government will put up that money, knowing that Hamas is still in power.  And then, in one or two or three years, there could be another war with Israel, and everything will be destroyed again. This is basically, you know, setting your own money on fire. And I don't see any country today that has the, you know, reserve funding to do this. I mean, of the countries that supported Hamas over the years, Iran is in a very bad economic situation. Turkey is in a very bad economic situation. Qatar is probably doing okay financially but has been under a lot of scrutiny and a lot of pressure because of October 7. 

   I don't see any country that would put money into Gaza knowing that it could all fall apart in two or three years in the next war.  The only scenario where countries will contribute to the reconstruction of Gaza will be if Hamas gives up power and Gaza is demilitarized. And I believe the economic leverage of the reconstruction must be used to ensure that result. But this is again, a more short-term issue. As for the bigger dreams of regional peace, I think they will have to wait for the time being. They are just not realistic after everything that happened over the past 18 months.

Bonnie  34:52

Sounds like a tall order, but we do have to look a little bit into the future. So, Amir, as far as I know, in the 18 months since October 7, Prime Minister Netanyahu has not gone to visit any of the kibbutzim or other communities along the Gaza border to inspect the damage or to offer condolences. Why do you think that is?

Amir  35:22

So, he made one short visit in the very beginning, took a look (as far as I know), but there were no residents there. The place was completely empty. And it was part of, I think, showing Elon Musk the place. Elon Musk had come to Israel, and that was it. And they entered the home of one of the families without notifying the family, and they were filmed in that home, and the family later protested it. But no meetings with the actual communities, no real visits where people can show you what happened to them, just a totally unacceptable lack of leadership. 

   I can tell you that our community, Nahal Oz, has been an evacuated community for most of the past 18 months. We had, over the summer, a few families that returned, but the kibbutz is still empty, and while we were in different evacuation sites we were visited by the former Prime Minister Naftali Bennett. He came eight days after October 7th and also the former Defense minister Avigdor Lieberman. And I mention these two, but we were also visited by many, many opposition politicians. But I'm specifically mentioning Bennett and Lieberman because they are considered right wing politicians in Israel. They don't get a lot of votes in kibbutzim like Nahal Oz, this is not their kind of favorite demographic. They both held important offices in different governments in the years before October 7, yes, and they both came to our community in the first two weeks, shared their condolences and got some difficult reactions. 

   People were angry. People had tough questions for them. They both said that everything going years back has to be investigated, including their roles, as you know, Prime Minister, Defense Minister, members of the Security cabinet. And I have a lot of respect for that kind of behavior. That's leadership to me. You show up, you hear the people, you offer whatever little answers you can give them. You take the tough questions. You don't shy away from it, even if these are not your voters, they are your people at the end of the day, yes, and I can tell you that no minister in the current government has bothered to do that.

Bonnie  38:05

That's quite astounding, quite telling. The saving of a life, “pikuach nefesh” in Hebrew, is one of Judaism's highest values. Many people know the story of Gilad Shalit. You mentioned him, the soldier who was released in 2011 after five years in captivity in exchange for over 1000 Palestinian prisoners. Several weeks after October 7, you and your father were invited to meet President Biden, when he visited Israel, and you both urged him to bring the hostages home. Today, 18 months later, exactly today, Netanyahu is on a plane on his way to Washington to meet With President Trump. Do you think the hostages are high on the list of topics to be discussed?

Amir  39:07

I know for a fact that returning the hostages is a top priority for the Trump administration. I know it for a fact. I know that Stephen Witkoff, President Trump's Special Envoy, sees the return of the hostages as the most important mission of his life, and I know that other officials in the Administration care deeply about the hostages, meet their families and support the use of diplomacy in order to secure their release. What I don't know is whether these people in the Trump administration who are so supportive of the hostage families and care so deeply about them, if they are willing to apply pressure on Prime Minister Netanyahu. That I don't know, I. I think Mr. Witkoff proved that when pressure must be applied, he can do it. I mean, we saw it in January before Trump entered office, when Witkoff came to the Middle East and basically flew from Qatar to Israel and back, and was pretty tough with everybody, basically telling them, my boss, President Trump, wants the hostages for his inauguration. And eventually it was done. And 33 hostages, 25 of them alive, were returned. But now if we want to complete this mission and bring back all the other 59, more pressure will have to be used. It's not going to come just with a sweet talk and nice words. So, I know that this administration is deeply committed to this issue, and I hope that they will prove that their commitment is so strong that they are actually willing to apply pressure where it has to be applied. Okay,

Bonnie  41:03

Now I have a question about the West Bank. That’s a whole different topic, but very important. The West Bank has been a place of turmoil for a very long time. On October 7, the IDF, the Israel Defense Forces, had 30 battalions in the West Bank. A battalion is, I believe, between 300 and 1000 soldiers. So, there were 30 battalions in the West Bank and four along the Gaza border on October 7. There are reports in today's Hebrew press, this morning, about the recklessness in the West Bank. It's not only today. What can you tell us about what's happening there?

Amir  41:54

Well, the situation in areas like Nablus, Tulkarem, Jenin, Hebron was unstable before October 7, and today we know that Hamas ran a successful ploy here, a successful trick on Israel by negotiating with Israel along the Gaza border for some kind of economic truce before October 7, igniting all those big Palestinian cities that I just mentioned, Tulkarem and Jenin, etc. And then Israel sent more forces over there, and had less forces on the Gaza border, where things seemed calm. And then Hamas struck on October 7. So that's the background, and I explain it in chapter 11 of my book. Yes, today, the situation there is still very tense. The IDF is active in all these places I mentioned, including Jenin and Tulkarem, and there are still attacks against Israeli civilians, settlers, against soldiers. But one thing has not fundamentally changed. The Palestinian Authority - which controls 40% of this territory - is still in power, and the men with guns employed by the Palestinian Authority were talking here. I think about more than 20,000 armed men currently are using their guns against Hamas and not against Israel. They're using their guns to keep the Palestinian Authority in power and not allow Hamas to try to stage a coup and take power, and they're not turning their guns at Israel. The big problem is that the Palestinian Authority will collapse because of politics, and once the Palestinian Authority collapses, then these 20,000-armed men will turn their guns on Israel. This will be a catastrophic reality, and we should do everything we can to avoid it.

Bonnie  44:08

Amir, one last question before we go ahead. Now I wish we had another two hours, but you know what? We're managing.

Amir  44:18

Well in Santa Fe the day is still young,

Bonnie  44:23

Yeah, but I worry about you getting enough sleep. So, I don't know.  ...

Amir  44:26

I'm okay, but if there are also questions from people, I’m happy to answer, yes.

Bonnie  44:29

Yes, because we have to do that too. So, my last question to you is, you lived on Nahal Oz for 10 years. Your wife, Miri, and you were so happy there with your little girls, having found a beautiful, quiet place only one hour from Tel Aviv. Have you decided whether you will return?

Amir  44:53

Right now, our intention is to go back. We have done some necessary steps for that to happen. We renovated our home, and we basically took out all the damages of October 7, and we made the home even more beautiful than it was before, and we enrolled the girls in the local kindergarten of Nahal Oz for next year, starting September 1. Okay, there is still one major obstacle, which is that the war has not ended, and we do not want to go back into an active war zone. We do not want the girls to hear airplanes and bombings and explosions every day, all day long. We want to have a ceasefire in place. We want the hostages home, including Omri Miran, our friend, the father of Ronnie and Alma, who are in my girls’ kindergarten. We want him to come back home. We want all the hostages to come back home. And so, I believe if there will be a deal to end the war and return the hostages, it is very, very, very likely that we will be back home in September. If the war continues, it's hard for me to say where we will start the school year. This is what is at stake for us right now, yes. 

Bonnie  46:10

Amir, before we open the floor to questions, I'd like to thank you for a wonderful book and a fascinating discussion. Thank you so much,

Amir  46:22

Bonnie, my honor, my honor and pleasure, and thank you for excellent questions. And I would like to hear now from the audience as well. Yes,

Ron  46:33

The first question that we have is from David Goldfarb. Recently, we've seen courageous Palestinians protesting against Hamas. What can and should Israel do to support such efforts? To date, the response has been disappointing to in terms of that support.

Amir  47:00

I think Israel should not interfere, and that we should not at all be seen as sponsors, supporters or even encouragers of these demonstrations, because this will help Hamas paint the people demonstrating as useful tools of Israel. So, we should let it be organic. Obviously we should not bomb or do any military activity that could hurt the momentum of these demonstrations, and we should continue to expose any information we can about corruption and misuse of humanitarian aid by Hamas, because this is one of the driving forces behind these demonstrations, so we should be sophisticated about it and not openly take any kind of ownership of it and continue to hammer Hamas through media and other  ways that show people what this murderous terrorist group is really all about

Ron  48:04

Marsha Saltz asks or says that she would love to be in contact with you. Would it be possible to have an email to send information? 

Amir  48:17

Yes, absolutely, and I can write it in the in the chat for everybody to see if that's okay. Oh, I don't think I have the option. So maybe, maybe Ron, well, we can send it out. Yes, yeah, we can send it to anybody who wants it, that's fine. Okay, just my email and I'm happy to be in touch. Yes.

Ron  48:41

Carl Cohen asked the questions about the reports about the Israeli soldiers and the aid workers in Gaza.

Amir  48:50

In Rafa, yes. I don't know enough yet about the incident. The video that I saw is shocking and disturbing. The IDF has to investigate this in all seriousness, because if we don't investigate it, others will for us, and this is not something that we can just excuse with kind of saying, well, it's war. We have to seriously, methodically investigate this incident, get to the bottom of how and why it happened, and if people did not follow orders and did not properly manage this very, very, very delicate situation, then obviously the military will have to handle it also through, you know, prosecution means.  That's all I can say. I don't know beyond that, any information beyond what has been published.

Ron  49:56

Okay? Robert asks if you can discuss the recent movies that have come out, about one that's more Israeli, and there's one he refers to as more Palestinian, the Academy Award nominee.

Amir  50:12

Oh, you're talking about “No other land”. Which is this joint Israeli Palestinian co- production about the situation. Listen, I think it's a very interesting movie. I don't always agree with everything, but I think it's strong and interesting, and people should watch it and inform themselves and read about this subject and get their own opinion about it. I think it's a big mistake to go out and attack the movie or try to stop people from watching it, because that always backfires, and it only makes people more interested. And I've read also valid criticisms about some of the elements of the movie, but it has to be first of all, based on the idea that you actually watch it and you're not trying to imagine it doesn't, you know, close your eyes and imagine it doesn't exist. I mean, that behavior, even my three-year-old doesn't do that anymore, but, you know, if she doesn't like something. She just closes in eyes and imagines it's not there.

Ron  51:18

Judith Kaye asked that you mentioned about the attacks against Jews in the West Bank, but we've also heard a lot about the violence from Jews toward Palestinians. Can you comment on that situation?

Amir  51:33

Well, in a way, this corresponds with the previous question, and we have a real problem of extremists who use violence against Palestinian civilians. They are a very small minority within the settler movement at large. They don't represent the majority of the settlers, but what they do is illegal, violent, harmful, and sadly, we have a very, very failed minister here in charge of the Israeli police who is himself an extremist. These incidents are not always investigated as they should be, and people get away too easily with committing these kinds of crimes. And this is something we have to change. We have to change this here in Israel, first of all, because it's a law enforcement issue beyond anything else. Violent people should not be allowed to do violent actions without being investigated and if needed, - arrested and tried. That's just a sign of a society and collapse. And of course, it also has wider security implications that, you know, this can lead to more acts of revenge and kind of downhill, you know, kind of a spiral of violence that can ignite the entire area. So, this is something that we definitely have to get better at, and we need, unfortunately, in my opinion, a different government in order to achieve it. I don't see the current Police Minister here, Itamar ben Gvir, himself an avowed extremist, taking care of this problem. That's a very sad reality, because it shouldn't be this way. This should not be about politics. This is about enforcing the law. But right now it is about politics.

Ron  53:26

There's a mention about the other movie, apparently, it was “Screams after Silence”.

Amir  53:41

“Screams after Silence”, yes. This is a documentary movie, a documentary movie about October 7, and specifically about sexual violence on October 7. And I have to say, you know, again, this is a very difficult issue, and for some people may be too difficult, but it's important to put it on the table and to be aware of some of these cases and to understand what happened. And just like I said about you know, in general, I think it's important for people, if you're engaged with this issue, if you want to understand the reality, it's important to educate yourself, to understand these things, to see different perspectives about these issues. It's not always easy, I know, but it's important.

Ron  54:36

Gloria Abella Ballen asks, what do you think about the about Palestinians who really want to stop the war and have peace with Israel?

Amir  54:48

Stop the war and have peace are two very different things right now, and most Israelis, according to public opinion polls, want to stop the war. 70% of Israelis want to stop the war in return for all the hostages being released. This does not mean 70% of Israelis want peace with the Palestinians. I think a huge majority of Palestinians want to end the war. That does not mean they want to have peace with Israel. Those are two separate issues. Stopping the war and releasing the hostages is right now an urgent need on the ground, peace is something much farther away, more of a dream at this point. And I would separate the two issues, because if we wait until peace arrives to end this war, you know, it means we could be fighting it well into the days that my two daughters will have to join the IDF, more than a decade from now. We shouldn't make that connection immediately. We all want peace, of course, you know, kind of as an aspiration, but the urgent political move should be to end the war and bring back the hostages.

Ron  55:59

Donald Goldstein asked, can you comment on the level of morale in the IDF now and the reports of some people in reserve duty refusing to serve.

Amir  56:10

So, I would separate political refusal to serve, which exists but is not very widespread at this point, with just fatigue and the desperation and depression from people who have done hundreds of days in the reserve forces since October 7, and their job prospects have been hurt. Their academic studies, all these things, and people are just saying, you know, I can't do this thing. That's not necessarily a political statement. It's just a statement of despair. And it's something that people are saying right now, and it is connected to politics in one very specific way, this government, in the midst of the war, is working overtime to exempt 10s of 1000s of young men, 18 year olds, from military service because they belong to the ultra-orthodox Haredi population in Israel and the parties that represent this specific segment of Israeli society are very powerful within the Netanyahu governing coalition, and their demand from Netanyahu in order to keep him in power, is to exempt their young men from military service. And this is a complete disgrace for a society in the midst of a war to do this kind of separation between those who have to serve and those who don't. And if there is one political element to this phenomenon of people saying, I cannot show up anymore, this is the politics of it. It's less about the bigger questions of the war and more about the unfairness of this reality.

Ron  58:02

Alexei Porter asked the question, saying, I'm worried about the information wars. And we see that Hamas and others seem to be winning the popular opinion over social media and in the United States in the mass media, and given the sophistication of Israel and a high-tech sector and the sophistication of outreach campaigns, why are we not seeing more success on the Israeli side?

Amir  58:32

Because our government is contradicting every positive message you could put out about Israel. You want to say, okay, Israel is the nation that one wants war and destruction. But then Ben Gvir and Smotrich open their mouth or touch their keyboard, and they contradict this message. Immediately. You want to say, we are the ones that care about human rights. We are fighting against monsters, and it's true, but then you have a minister in the government saying we should drop an atomic bomb on Gaza. This is like fighting with one hand tied behind your back. Okay? We have people in our own government who are basically doing the propaganda work of the enemy while they are getting paid from by our tax money. And this is a terrible situation, but it's the reality. You cannot win the messaging war when you contradict your own messaging. 

Ron

Linda Ravine and Holly Faust essentially have the same question - the goals of getting hostages out of Gaza and ending the war and then getting Hamas out of Gaza are not necessarily shared by Hamas itself. Hamas, the first two, but not the third, if not war. How do you get rid of Hamas? 

Amir

So, the first two items can happen, Hamas will have to give up power in order for Gaza to be reconstructed. If they don't give up power after the completion of the hostage deal, Gaza will remain under siege, and no truck of cement will enter because, again, no country in the world will invest money in rebuilding Gaza, knowing that tomorrow, there could be another war, and Israel would bomb the place to the ground. This is the strongest leverage we have over Hamas and over Gaza, frankly, the question of the reconstruction, and once we get all the hostages out and we end the war. This has to be the deal, full reconstruction, generous reconstruction, with the involvement of Saudi Arabia and United Arab Emirates and these other countries, but only under one condition, demilitarization and Hamas gives up power. And I believe it can be achieved.

Ron  1:01:07

So, Alexa Porter comes back with a follow up question of, why isn't Israel investing in the outreach that could affect the opinion in the West?

Amir  1:01:22

I think I answered this question already. We have a government right now that is appalling to many, many parts of the population of what you consider the West, if the West is built around liberal values and values of freedoms. This is not a government that represents liberal values and freedoms. I'm sorry, but this is the reality we are still, you know, okay, if the only kind of scale is we are better than the other side. Yes, we are 100 times better. But this doesn't work in today's media environment, and this should not be our argument. Oh, we are better than Hamas. No, if we want to make a serious argument that we are fighting for these values, we represent these values, we adhere to these values. It actually has to be that way, and this is true for a lot of Israelis and huge segments of Israeli society, but it's not true for the current government, and you can just look at their statements, look at their behavior, look at how they are attacking the people within the military who are investigating wrongdoing and the things like that. This speaks for itself.

Ron  1:03:24

Amir, thank you so much for being with us today, and for your insight into this, the information on Israel that has been informative. I think this has been helpful to our audience, and we appreciate your being on the distinguished lecture series. Thank you for writing The Gates of Gaza, for beautiful writing and for telling a story that is not only about October 7, but the much broader story about the history and how we got to that situation. It well deserves the National Jewish Book Award. It's a great book.

Amir  1:04:24

Ron, thank you for these heartwarming words and for inviting me in the first place. I deeply appreciate it, and I want to thank everybody who joined and wish for all of us to see better times soon.

Bonnie  1:04:37

Thank you. Amir

Amir  1:04:40

Amen, okay, we'll be in touch. Thank you very much. Thank you. Goodbye. Bye.

The Jewish Learning Channel, Institute of Tolerance Studies, Distinguished Lecture Series

The Institute for Tolerance Studies Celebrates 20 Years